boyan: hello, internet. welcome to the geek andsundry google hangout. my name is boyan radakovich andi'm an associate producer on a show you might knowcalled table top. and i am here hanging out withmy friends on the table. guys, i'll let you introduceyourselves. so why don't we get thisthing started off? we're going to talk aboutgaming, specifically getting you guys into more strategyand hardcore
gaming like war gaming. i'll tell my story and thenwe'll kind of run around the table and talk about what got usinto gaming and where we're at gamer-wise. so i, probably like a lot ofpeople, started gaming with dungeons and dragons,good lord, don't make me do the math-- years ago. i have been playinga very long time.
and my first character was ahuman thief called boyan. it was a awesome character. and that got me in-- sam: theives are alwaysawesome, man. boyan: yeah, i know. my imagination was amazingwhen i was eight. yeah, so i got intoit that way. i was basically hookedfrom the beginning. and once i got into junior high,i was playing all the
dragonlance games. i got really, really into it. from there, i got intoboard games. and then when magic thegathering came out, that sealed the deal. and i've been play magic, andboard games, and role-playing quite a lot. and if you remember the oldschool wizards that have forbidden talent like,they can cast those
spells, but not others. warren: yeah. yeah. boyan: was alwaysthat, for me. i couldn't get into like,40k and [? oards, ?] and all that kind of stuff. but i could do skirmish-levelstuff. and i think it's because itfelt a little bit more approachable from a board gamestandpoint, like tactics and
that sort of thing. so today, we're going to talkabout taking it from where i'm at to the next level and someother games that people should be playing. so that's my story. warren, you want togive it a go? warren: yeah, why not. so i'm warren, the currentpresent of on the table, until we can find a hot ladyto take my place.
[laughter] warren: applications arevery welcome, girls. so we want to get some ladytalent on the shows. gaming, well, it startedas a youngster. for me, it started with videogaming, you know, on the atari, and then onthe spectrum. and we had this great, amazinggame on the spectrum called chaos, which was a wizardin each corner. and those little wizards castspells likely gooey blobs, and
red dragons, and stufflike that. and i had a charactercalled warzan. so that kind of development andi got into role playing. a guy came from england when wewere like 11 or 12 and told us about this great thing, youknow, called dungeons and dragons and how you makeit up as you go along. we had no rule books. and we literally did justdraw maps and make it up as we went along.
boyan: sweet. warren: and that was wherewe learned about 100-sided dice, man. ben: glorious dice. so from that, we thendiscovered a game called hero guest. and then that was when idiscovered i had the miniatures gene. you know, where i had a genethat just left me completely
besotted with miniatures,you know. before that, i'd always playedthe toy soldiers, well, plastic army men. we've all done that. i always loved them. i loved my "star wars"and stuff like that. but now, i was trulyinto miniatures. so it kind of then developedfrom there. obviously, you take a breakbecause you grow up, you
discover cars and girls. so i took a bit ofa break there. [inaudible] boyan: right? so then came back into it. and, you know, loveplaying 40k. now, we are exposed to so manygames and stuff now. you know, we get topick and choose. and i recently got back intodungeon and dragons thanks to
one of the team memberswe have, andy. and i now am completelyrock and roll in dungeon and dragons. because i have a charactercalled bull rosseruus that is-- sam: oh, no. warren: that just kicks ass. and then bull rosserous, to thetheme tune of "hawaii 5-0" i might add.
sam: every time. warren: turns intosharkeroserous. warren: sharkeroserousis like the-- ben: oh, dear. warren: whole version of bullrosserous and sharkeroserous completely kicks ass. warren: to say i'm enjoyingdungeons and dragons at the moment is kind of likean understatement. i am just loving bull rosserousand sharkeroserous
at the moment. so i'm looking forward tochatting with you guys and answering any questions andstuff you have and seeing if we can guide some of you guysthrough those first tentative steps from the board gaming andthe role playing you're going to let you, you know,start to explore the actual war gaming side and thecollecting and painting side because it's an amazing hobby. boyan: yeah, absolutely.
so how about my otherguys here? warren: ben, do youwant to have a go? ben: yeah, sure. well, i'm ben. and i write the script with samfor on the table as well as a few of the thingsfor the side as well. i weirdly came in on the wargaming side of things. that was my first step into, youknow, gaming and geekdom and stuff like that.
and i remember i was at schooland we, like, talked about it in the dining roomqueue and stuff. and that sort of spurred me onto actually start playing the games [inaudible] games,warhammer 40k and warhammer fantasy. from that point on, i mean, iwasn't very good at paint the miniatures or anything at thebeginning and i don't think anybody is really. sam: i'm still lost.
ben: they're just like red blobswith a couple of massive eyes on the top of them. but the evilish and then sortof went onto doing more miniatures, war games. and then eventually we wentinto board gaming, which wasn't actually that long ago. it was probably about maybefive years ago that we actually started boardgaming properly. and from that point on, we'veactually done a lot more stuff
through the games that camefrom people like fantasy flight, rio grande, andcompanies like them. and that sort of pushed us onto do the other side of this game world and things. so yeah, i'm definitely lookingforward to going back into miniatures wargaming stuff now. and i've been playing a few moregames recently from a few different systems and stuff. so i've got to store all theserules in my head and get them
translated and it'll be fine. sam: yeah. boyan: that's awesome. sam, you want to jump in hereand let us know how you got into gaming? boyan: what's your favorite? sam: sure. well, i'm sam. like ben, i'm one of the writersfor on the table and a
journalist on the site. i got into gaming dueto miniatures. back in primary school-- warren: sam, can i alsojust interrupt you while you're coughing. because you're also the amazinghair of [inaudible]. sam: yes, i am the hair. warren: look at that thing. but i got into war gaming whena mate of mine in primary
school called chris bingham,who is actually a bit of an internet celeb himself how, heshowed me some warhammer miniatures he had. and from that moment on, i washooked, went to a couple of warhammer club things, tried toset up one up in the high school i went to in england. and then i moved over to herein northern ireland. and i kind of drifted out ofwar gaming until a mate of mine told me about thesegreat guys, they're
called beasts of war. and they're here inthis [inaudible]. i went along to oneof their sessions. and i walked into theirstore room. and i didn't evenknow there were other games than warhammer. it was just, i want toplay everything. warren: right. sam: and warren willback me up on this.
for two and a half years,i've just been going, oh, a new game? i want to play that. sam: i want to play that. it's a bit like that here. you know, it's like walking intoaladdin's cave to go into our schedule room. warren: seeing the games thatwe've either covered or are about to cover, it'sjust extraordinary.
and most people don't realizethe depth of the miniatures and the gaming market. we're in the golden age or we'reentering the golden age of gaming, i believe. and we will have a lotto thank video gaming for in this. because i think video gamingis spurring people to say, well, i enjoy gaming, but i'dlike to try a different kind of gaming as well.
so i don't think we'veever had it so good. boyan: yeah. sam: especially with thingslike dawn of war. sorry. boyan: go ahead, sam. warren: i think we'vegot a politeness bottleneck here, gents. boyan: well, i'm american. so i can be rude.
when i go on panels it's acommon question, like, do you feel like there's a renaissancehappening, like there's a resurgenceof tabletop gaming? i say, absolutely, you know. ben: yeah, definitely yeah. boyan: the show, table top,is a big part of that. but it's because ofthe underlying current that's out there. i mean, there's new playersall the time, stores are
popping up. i mean, it's awesome. i love it. and there's absolutely no shamein saying, yeah, i'm a gamer, you know. and right now it's very easy toget people to come over to your house, hang out,and play games. and you can introduce them tothe nice, casual play games. but then once you find out thatthey have that gene, you
can tap in. once they have the itch, you canstart playing more deeper strategy games. ben: yeah. boyan: hopefully, we cantalk about that here. sam: and lo, the geek shallinherit the earth. boyan: ok. well, we have a few questionson the side. but maybe, let's talk about somegood introductory games
to get people from table top,you know, like, they've just walked in, they're playingsome nice high-strategy, high-luck games. they're well produced. they're european-styleboard games. but maybe they want to startgetting more into tactics, strategy, painting miniatures,more deeper worlds, like heavy-themed worlds. so how about ben, you want togive a good example of a game
that you think is going to bringpeople over, like what's a good crossover title? ben: well, there's one that isee as a sort of really good gateway game. and it comes fromfantasy flight. and it's their dust tacticsand dust warfare range. ben: it's [inaudible] world war,which is kind of things like vampires and werewolvesand things mixing with the nazi occultism andstuff like that.
and everyone's seen from thefilms, and books, and graphic novels and stuff. so it's a great way ofgetting people into it through the themes. boyan: but this theboard game, right? it's one box that you can buy? dust tactics by fantasy flight. boyan: and it has some scenariosin there for you. but basically, everything youneed to play is just in one
little box. ben: pretty much, yeah. so that gives you a nice newnuclear start to the game. and you could expand it throughbuying extra bits and pieces and stuff like that. so yeah, it's a goodentry-level game. all the miniatures, you don'thave to paint them. but they come sort of likeon this primed style. it's that they become almostkind of beginner painted, ok.
so you can then, you're justlooking at adding some little details and stuff. the great thing about dusttactics is dust tactics has now evolved into dust warfare. so say went along andyou bought that box. and you played the board game,the dust tactics at home. if you find yourself, you're getin the itch of this, you can go out and there's a wholehost of other dust tactics models and things thatyou can buy.
and then you buy the rule bookcalled dust warfare. and then suddenly atthat point, you're breaking out of the board. warren: you're now onto thetable top, you know, four-by-four-- ben: proper four-by-fourboards, yeah. warren: and you and yourbrothers, your sisters, or your friends can then start toactually build up armies themselves.
so you know, as a gateway,it's got a thumbs up from me, that game. and it's tactically sound. but also, it nice andsimple, that game. the war game itself doesn't havecomplexity, but it does have depth. there's a lot toexplore in it. boyan: i think it'sa great one. it was definitely on my list of
recommendations so good call. ben: yes. warren: yeah, thanksfor that, ben. i don't know what i'mgoing to say now. boyan: sam, what do you think ofa game like memoir '44, you know, where it's basicallycard-based tactics? so you have a lot of the samestrategy that you find in, like, historical miniatures,but it's not quite as rules intense.
how do you thinkabout that one? have you played it? warren: sam, i think he'stalking to you. sam: oh, sorry. you're talking to me then? i haven't playedthat one also. boyan: oh, you haven'tplayed the memoir? sam: no. is it any good?
boyan: oh, man. memoir '44 is awesome. it's designed bydays of wonder. sam: oh, yeah. boyan: and it's basicallya world war ii sim and they have scenarios. so this is one the things aboutminiature gaming, is that you play scenarios. and it's squadron level.
so you try to recreatea certain battle in world war ii. and normally it's two playerbut you can play-- i've played it six player likeoverlord way where there's like one general in the middleand two attendants on the side, which is really cool. boyan: and, you know, youget all the same figs. you get, like, tanksand stuff. and you have to usetactics to move.
and it kind of builds a lotof the basic strategies of miniature gaming, you know butwithout an alternate world. it's set in actually worldwar ii, right. well, there's another game likethat by fantasy flight. and it's tide of iron series. ben: and it takes that kind ofsame theme as you said with memoir '44, but it magnifiesit to a huge scale. like the box that it comesin is humongous. it's like a proper coffinbox style thing.
ben: i think the term is. and that allows you to do thesame thing in flight scenarios that were historically accurateand stuff like that. and it's essentially aminiatures game, just with a board game packagingin a way, so yeah. warren: yeah, the other thingi've got to say about this, you know, is for anybodywatching this, you know, don't get too hung up aboutthe game. a lot of the time it's just,if you like the look of
miniatures, 9 times out of 10,you'll get to enjoy the game. when we say we have theminiatures gene, you know, it's not an understatement tosay that the miniatures do drive it a lot of the time. another example i want to give,and this should appeal to a load of you guys out there,is star wars x-wing by fantasy flight. we're really going on fantasyflight tonight. but fantasy flight have beendoing exceptional games now
for about a year or two. well, probably longerto be fair. but x-wing is-- boyan: it kicks ass. warren: x-wing is areally tight game. it's a really, reallytight game. but you get the prepaintedminiatures. and it's the "star wars" welike. so it's none of this prequel episodes nonsense.
it's centered on what we love. so you're getting x-wings inthere, the millennium falcon is coming out. [inaudible]. warren: and you can play. you can play, i'm about to letmyself down in a massive geek way here, [inaudible]about that. but you can play. there's extra cards in it.
i think the millennium falconis t-1300 freighter. warren: you can play multiplemillennium falcon as bug standard d-1300 freighters thatdon't have the engine upgrade that allowed it to dothe kessel run in 12 parsecs. boyan: [inaudible]. ben: you remember theimportant bit. warren: that game is juststunningly good. you don't need to be tooconcerned with painting. we're about to start doing moreand more coverage of it.
and we'll even be looking at,you know, a little painting, weathering techniques we callit, that you could apply to the miniatures to take themmaybe to that next level. but, you know, so many peoplewatching this will be in love with "star wars." goand pick it up. it's just astounding. sam: you can get fromwaterstones over here in the uk at the moment. it's generally available.
but to my point. my point is, you know, if you'rewatching on the table and you see a game like mercs,or bushido, or any of these other games that we cover andyou like the miniatures, don't be afraid to go anddelve into it. you know, because the thingabout a war game is there's a general structureto a war game. so i'm going to try and givemy secret away to whenever we're trying to addressa new war game.
there's only really four thingsyou need to think about, is what are therules for movement? so how do you move your guysaround and how do they say stay together or move apart? shooting. how do you shoot at stuff? how do you attack stuff inhand-to-hand combat? and then, the fifth one is anoptional one if there's any kind of like magic or psychicpowers and things like that.
so sometimes they come in-- boyan: what happened to,when do you drink beer? warren: oh, sorry. yes. yes, absolutely. sam: on the constant. ben: yeah, that's mandatoryat the end of every turn. warren: at the end ofevery movement. warren: if you approach a wargame like that, it doesn't
matter how thick therule book is. you can say, well, look, ok. first thing i'm going to do ishave a look and see how i move these things around. you know, and justapproach it. and you could pick up prettymuch any war game. yeah, there's some war gamesthat are definitely more complex than others. but, you know, beasts of wardo full-length tutorials on
how to get into these games asdo other sites out there. it's about jumping in. don't wait for us to tell youit's safe to jump in. just go and do it. you know, just go do it. if you love the miniatures andyou like the look of them, 9 times our of 10 you'll find thatyou'll enjoy the game. and if you don't, here'sthe other secret. you can change the rules.
boyan: oh, yeah. sam: yeah, it's notset in stone. warren: you know, too manypeople, you know, the rules are the rules. but, you know, theseare games. it's not law. it's a game. so if you don't like howsomething works and you think you can change it, feelfree to do that.
you don't need anybody'spermission to do that except for the guy you're playing. warren: you can't change-- sam: that's true. warren: the rules in themiddle of a game. sam: yeah, you can't changeit so your guy's suddenly superman, or [inaudible]. unless you're playinga pc game. boyan: yeah, it's cool.
so i think maybe part of theintimidation is the difference between like skirmish-levelstuff, like squad level stuff, and like the big army. so most of the gateway gamesthat we're talking about are definitely like smallskirmish-level things. like, "star wars" technicallyis a skirmish game, right? mm-hmm. ben: essentially, yeah. boyan: to build your army.
and so it's like, ok. cool, i have threetie fighters. one of my tie fighters haslike, darth whoever. boyan: and he's a bad ass. so he's worth fivemore points. but you're playing. you've got luke. and luke is worth however manypoints and r2's worth however many points.
so those guys together on theirship or whatever is worth more, right. boyan: i mean, that's basically how you build a army. and i think that's probably agood way to start, right? yeah, play one ofthese awesome-- sam: yeah, by increments. play in increments. play a skirmish-level game.
like, mercs i like becausei like that cyberpunk-- i actually thought it moremodern than cyberpunk. but i guess the worldis a bit more-- warren: it's a bitmore corporate. warren: so there's a veryinteresting vibe and dynamic going on in mercs. it's a game that's definitelycaught our eye. and it's one that's well-worthwatching. because it has a freshness toit, which i'm keen to see how
that freshness pans out. sam: i've played a coupleof games in mercs. and the mechanics are reallycrisp and clean and really easy to get a hold of. you open the box and you'vegot everything you need to get a game on. if i remember correctly fromunboxing some of the starter sets, there are a few bits ofcards, terrain that you can just place.
because, you know, when youstart out in gaming you don't have the great table tops thatyou see in places like games workshop and the like. you just have maybea kitchen table. so just giving out little pieceslike that, it's great. you get the mercsbox, you're set. sam: so that's oneto start with. warren: a typical armyis like five guys. we're getting a strange err.
i've turned into a cyber man. but you get you get fiveguys in the box. you know, it's that easy tomigrate your way into. again, it's quite athick rule book. but the rules are notthat complex. can i get to another pointabout the hobby, and that maybe puts people off? and that's, they don'tknow how to paint. you know, to enjoy that hobby, ineed to be able to paint and
i need to be able tobuild gaming tables and things like that. don't be afraid of that. that stuff comes as well. there are a lot of really,really good tutorials out there on painting. painting is a verysimple thing. and don't need your miniaturesto look like the miniatures in the books and the catalogs.
they're that way because peoplespend 100 hours on one miniature to make itlook that way. you know, just paint yourminiatures so that they're colorful, they have a themegoing through them. that whenever you look down atthe table, you're proud to have them there. and if painting really isn'tyour thing, well then, look at the likes of x-wing or dusttactics where the miniatures already come pre-painted or partpainted so you don't have
to worry about it. and actually, at conventionshere in the us, it's a popular event where it's called paintand take, where you go to events and you have anexpert person there tell you how to paint. you get a fig. you pick whicheverone you like. and they basicallywalk you through. and at the end of it,you take it home.
i mean, it's awesome, right. so especially-- ben: that's a fantasticidea, yeah. sam: that's great. boyan: so, i mean, do that. like, if you want to go to aclub, someone else help you go through the basics. and you know, like warren'ssaying, it doesn't have to be awesome, right.
just get into like the levelthat you think is good for you and then spend more time. you know, get into it. and then obviously, you know,at the beginning you're not using, like, the most amazingpaints and like the best brushes ever. so you have a deficit becauseof the technique. but also because you're notusing, like, the premium pro stuff that all these guys arein the books, you know.
so don't worry about it. i mean, as i said, i started offin war gaming as the main focus of becoming agamer as it were. and at that point, my paintingskills were nothing on, you know, anything out there. but you still have fun playingthe game even if you've got like, you know, one coatof paint on a model. i mean, as long as there'ssomething that ties together and you think it looks cool,there's nothing else stopping
you from doing it. so go out there and,you know, game. warren: yeah, look, i'vegot an admission, guys. i am the world's biggestfan of dry brushing. ok. ben: i love dry brushing. dry brushing's great. warren: dry brushing isthe only way i can get an army on the table.
and i dry brush metallics. so almost every armory i everdo is metallic in some way because it's easy to spray thething black and then dry brush on some metallic color,copper happens be my personal favorite. and then i just pickout some details. on then you get these thingscalled washes. and the wash doesall the work. warren: and i do that becausei don't have time,
unfortunately. i would love to have more timeto sit down and just delve deeper and deeper intoa particular army. but you know, i have to work. i have a family. i have a two-year-oldtoddler at home. i don't get a lot of time forall this painting and stuff. so i settle. as long as the army, you know,you'll be surprised what you
will believe looks cool,especially when you've done it yourself. ben: exactly, yeah. warren: when you'vedone it yourself. sam: forgive us [inaudible]. warren: yes. your other option is if you'rea banker, you can always send your miniatures out toa painting studio and have them do it.
there's a painting studio overhere called golem, that i just love their work. i absolutely love their work. and you know, you canjust package it up, send it over to then. and they'll send it back allbeautifully painted. would you want to playwith it after that? i'm not sure. warren: you'd probably justwant it sitting on your
display cabinet. ben: bubble wrap aroundeverything because [inaudible] after that point,i think, yeah. and then that's an extra rulelater on, that they've got bubble wrap shieldingso, it's fine. sam: distract the enemy. boyan: cool. well, i think we're probablyhalfway through. so maybe we can start fieldingsome questions.
warren: absolutely. boyan: actually, hold on. let me talk about, there is agame that might be another good segue and that'sblood bowl. i don't know if you guys-- warren: ah, yes. ben: yeah, blood bowl. boyan: and blood bowl is coolbecause you basically get to live in the world, right.
and so like the last one iplayed were my skaven team. and so they're basically likethese little rat men. and they're horribleguys, right. i mean, most of the timethey get murdered. but, so blood bowl's cool. basically it's a kind offootball-like game. it kind of introduces youto painting miniatures, squad-level stuff, and you canplay it in a campaign mode, which is really cool.
so it's great for offices. and that's one of things aboutminiatures is, you know, if you have a big army, wheredo you put them? well, bring it towork, you know. and we did this. we ran a blood bowltournament. and we'd play at lunch. and it was amazing. and we had this, like, stadiumbuilt, you know, like an
actual foam stadium. ben: that's fantastic, yeah. sam: sweet. boyan: and it was cool, man. and it was a full ordeal. and then we just leavethe board, you know. warren: and it's a relativelyquick to play as well though. you're not going to be therefor hours and hours playing that game.
it would be also remiss of menot to mention a game called dread bowl, which iskind of like a futuristic sci-fi kind of-- ben: sports game. warren: yeah, it'ssports games. so along the linesof blood bowl. it's produced by a companycalled mantic games. and it's growing prettyfast as well. but sports could bea great entry in.
then the final one, thisgame isn't out yet. but i have a hunch that wemight see it this year. it's probably more ofa hope than a hunch. warren: one of my favoritegames of all time is warhammer quest. and it was kind ofdungeon-delving with miniatures. and it was made bygames workshop. and it's based on their fantasyline, not their
science-fiction line. we have heard inklings this yearthat games workshop are going to put out another boxedgame of some sort. we're not so sure thatit's going to be a refresh of blood bowl. we don't really think thatthat's where'd they go. but there's a couple of thingsthat might point in the direction that it couldbe warhammer quest. so it, to me, would be one ofthe perfect gateway entries
into fantasy war gaming becauseyou could start small and dungeon and adventurethrough. warren: but you're gettingexposure to the likes of orks and things like out there. and then you might decide,you know what? i'm going to builda small army. and then me and my friend canstart to battle that way. so it'll be interesting tosee if that comes out. i could be completely wrong,but who knows?
sam: we can only hope. boyan: but don't be shy, guys. like, seriously, play thesegames out there. ben: yeah, definitely. boyan: play themon the weekend. invite your friends over. and just be like, yeah. this is my army. this is what i do.
like, i play, whatever. you don't have to beashamed of it. and you'll be surprised how manypeople will actually come out and embrace it. and be like, yeah, i'llgive it a try. and you'll find, like, maybethey love the world, or maybe they love the tactics, or maybethey love building the armies, or maybe it's just thepainting, you know, like they really love that aspect.
and everyone can be partof this world. like, i feel like we are morerelated to each other than we're different, right. like, each type ofgamer, we're more similar than we are different. so we should not, like slicing,say like, oh, i am only a war gamer. i'm only a euro board gamer. i only play [inaudible].
like, naw. that's bullshit. i mean, we're way more similarthan we are apart, right. it's like would you want tospend every day eating pizza, or would like to try pasta,and irish stew, and stuff like that? it's like, have a varied diet. and you'd be surprised, youknow, who are out there, among the celebs and people of powerwho are into this.
you know, peter jackson from"the hobbit" and "lord of the rings," is a huge fanof miniatures. he got personal lessons fromthe perry twins, two very famous sculptors on how tosculpt miniatures as well. and he's just a hugefan of that. you have, obviously,robin williams, vin diesel is a gamer. i hear even angelinajolie is a gamer. so you'd be surprised,you know.
and if i'm wrong, who cares? gaming is now really comingtowards the mainstream. you're allowed to enjoy thisbecause it's some of the coolest stuff in the world. this is not like what gaming was20, 30 years ago where it was all, i don't want touse the phrase stuffy "napoleonics" because i'mactually quite enjoying some of the napoleonic stuff i'mlooking into at the moment. but there wasn't alot of variety.
and quality, i don't thinkthey knew the word. sometimes a miniature didn'teven look like a miniature. it was like a blob. this stuff today is absolutelystunning. it's phenomenal. warren: you look atthe kickstarter from kingdom death. ben: oh, brilliant. warren: they just brokethrough it.
they broke through two milliondollars on kickstarter for their board gamecalled monster. sam: they made it to thetwo million mark? warren: they made it tothe two million mark. but a million of that waslike in two days. here's where we mentionedkickstarter because kickstarter's one of the drivingforces behind a lot of the innovation that we're seeingnow in the industry. you know, it's allowing sometalented individuals and
talented little companiesto be well-funded. yeah, they're at riskbecause, you know, they have to deliver. but it didn't existthree years ago. boyan: i think it allows worldsthat maybe are edgier that you could-- boyan: you could do, you know. like, i think malifauxwasn't kick started. but malifaux's one of thoseworlds, you know, it's like
this weird steam pondcorp stuff. i'm not really surewhat's going on. boyan: it's cool. sam: awesome. ben: that's skirmish-levelas well. so it's an easy way to get intoit because obviously it's a low model count. they're cool little miniaturesthat you can spend a little bit of extra timetrying to paint.
it's got a cool mechanic withthe cards and stuff like that. and the background's amazingfor that world. it's great. warren: yeah, for theskirmish-level games, if i had to list a few off the top myhead, obviously you have mercs, malifaux is anothergreat one. and it's a totally differentstyle from mercs, again. so if you have a lookat these, something will appeal to you.
another great one is infinity. warren: infinity isjust stunning. the miniatures are going to bea little bit more difficult for you to work with. but you know what? if you fancy a little bit moreof a challenge, and it's only a little bit moreof a challenge, it will be so rewarding. because it's such a stunning,stunning game.
some other skirmish ones isobviously warmachine and hoardes work perfectly well atthe skirmish-level, in many respects work better atthe skirmish-level. they even have a two playerstarter box that you can pick up that has two warmachinemachine armies in it. you and a buddy gohalfers on it. and everything you need is inthat box to get playing. and you don't need massivegaming space to be able to do it.
you know, four feet by fourfeet, you know, a kitchen table is more thanenough space. boyan: yeah, and onlytwo players. i mean, it's really easyto hit critical mass. boyan: friends show up and nowyou have a gaming group. and you're playingand collecting. and you're playing differentfactions, and you're specializing, and you'repainting your own guys, and customizing the figs.
and that's when it getsawesome, right. that's when-- boyan: you're like,i'm in this world. like, these are my characters. warren: if you don't have clubsand things nearby, you don't need a club to play. these games are designed for youto play at home over some beers and pretzels-- beers and crisps.
that's what they're for, for youand the family to enjoy or you and your friends to enjoy. and there's games, i've seensome questions coming in here. but you can get gamesto go up to 4, 5, 6, 7 people, 8 people. sam: i would say two skirmishgames that are really good at getting you into the world asit were would be carnevale. warren: oh, yes. sam: and fire of the dead, twoof my favorite skirmish games
this year because they're reallynarrative focused. warren: carnivale won an originsaward for its rules. and carnevale just comes to lifebecause the miniatures in carnevale, you can run upwalls, and jump from balcony-to-balcony, andjump over canals. it's all set in venice. sam: or get pushed into thecanal by [inaudible]. yeah, and get pushedinto the canal. they can jump from nowinto a gondola.
and then jump from the gondolaout of the canal. it just comes to life. it's an amazing game fromthat perspective. ben: it's like assassin's creedii meets cthulu, if that's a good way of saying it. boyan: how is that nota willing formula? come on. that's awesome. ben: that's an amazingformula, yes.
boyan: it really is. ben: winning formula. boyan: jeeze. all right. let's try to tackle somequestions here. are you guys actually goingto come out state-side? how about that? ever think of coming to one ofthe conventions out here? well, we will see.
it's all time and budget, youknow, as for everything else. we've just moved. we have a lot going on herenow with the new studio. but we would love to comeout and see if we could hook up at gen con. because i think youwould probably-- ben: who doesn't wantto go to gen con? gen con would be-- sam: pick me.
warren: high on the list. so yes, absolutely. it's definitely something that'swe're talking about and is on the cards is tocome out there. and who knows bo, we could maybeget a game with you and will, and-- boyan: hell, yeah, man. warren: as well. boyan: i would love it.
anytime you're state-sidelet me know. and you're definitelywelcome to my gaming table, all you guys. and if i'm ever in theuk again, i'll hit you guys up again. warren: oh, absolutely. absolutely. so in short, yes. yes, we'd like that.
i'm just not sure when we'regoing to do that. let's see. you guys want to takesome of these a more technical questions? i see a question in from scottking saying, what changes that you guys are going todo a behind the scenes bonus episode? the hosting games are great, butthe production quality is shockingly good.
i'd love to see how youguys actually work. oh, so you want to see allthe fighting and arguing? boyan: i don't think that peoplereally want to see pre-production and what it lookslike behind the scenes. they want the shinything up front. believe me. behind the scenes is like agreat episode of "american chopper." you know, there's alot of throwing chairs and all sorts of things around.
it may look elegant, but thefeet are kicking under on the water like crazy. who knows? you know, we do some behindthe scenes stuff over at beastsofwar.com, wedo a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. at the moment, you know, we'rejust immensely busy with trying to get the new studiosand everything up. we may well filma bit of that.
but yes, keep an eye out. it's probably not going to be anactual episode that airs on geek and sundry. but if you head on over tobeastsofwar.com, you know, we do stuff like that fromtime-to-time where we show some of the behindscenes stuff. boyan: that's cool. how about this? got a couple questions aboutthe dice themselves.
a common thing in war gaming isjust standard d-six, like a little small ones. boyan: like a wholefistful of them. some of the new games are cardriven mechanics or they have custom dice like fantasyflight's vary. that's their thing, right. that they love customdice and whatever. boyan: you guys have any ritualsor things that you go along with the dice?
like, do you have customsets just for an army? do you have, basicallydifferent colors? sam: tell them aboutthe laser, warren. when i play gameswith infinity, infinity's based on d-10s. boyan: yes. warren: and i have a soft spotfor games based on d-10s. i think d-10 is a very-- sam: infinity's d-20's,i think.
d-20s. boyan: whatever. whatever, sam. warren: want i have, is i havethese clear dice, they're kind like clear d-20's that the guysfrom corvis belli, the makers, actually gave me. boyan: wow. warren: and they gave me a lasersight because it's all line of sight.
so you get down with the lasersight to try and see if you can hit a guy. boyan: hell, yeah, dude. warren: so what i do is i-- sam: interactive. warren: i laser charge my dicebefore throwing them. so i think as far as any of theinfinity videos, they'll see me charging my dicewith my lasers. warren: so i chargethe lasers.
it kind of puts my opponentoff because he thinks i'm a nutter. but i love doing it so. warren: so my originalis charging dice with laser beams so. boyan: nice. ben: i've been told thati am illustriously lucky with my dice. i don't think i'm am,but other people do.
ben: so i have my special setof dice that's got like skulls as the 6s. and i shake my hand andi blow on them. i'm like, yes. this is the way to go. and then when they allcome up skulls i can go ah, ha, ha, ha. ben: that's fantastic. warren: the only thing i findmyself doing in games with d-6
is i find myself gettingthe dice and i'm rolling them in my hands-- go like that. warren: for some reason. yeah, and then-- ben: and then roll them. warren: i'm doing. i don't know why i do it,but it's this rolling sensation that i do.
ben: i do have dice fordifferent games as well. like, i have the skull dice forthis game called uncharted seas, which is like a fantasynaval game by spartan games. boyan: by spartan, sorry. ben: spartan games, yeah. and then i have sort of likemore futuristic dice for 40k, and more sort of likemystical dice for when i'm doing fantasy. i mean in d&d i have thesedevices with like dragons
wrapped around the numbers. and every time i use them, myfriends are really annoyed because they can't read whatthe values are on the dice. boyan: it's all across. what? you can't-- ben: exactly. sam: i've got this singleskull dice. that's like my lucky dice, whichi use it when playing
warhammer 40k, or whatever. but it's not actuallythat lucky. warren: it's your dice oflast resort, is it? sam: i was at a 40k doublestournament. and i kept going, i'm goingto use the lucky dice. it will bring us victory. and my partner, whatever,was just, no! i am taking that diceaway from you! boyan: oh, that's bad.
warren: i see a questionhere from tara newman. she will happily applyto show up for an episode of on the table. where are these applications? well, tara, i was going to giveyou my personal email address but it's going to looklike i'm fishing for dates. boyan: right, right. just text me here and i'll-- sam: you have to go through arigorous interview panel.
warren: just email, whatwould you email? email community@beastofwar.com. we put that address upin the last episode. somebody will pick it up. and you know what? if you're in the londonarea or something, definitely we'll talk. you know, because i'm not jokingabout we're on the hunt for more presenters andstuff like that
to talk about gaming. because it's just such a widething to talk about. we would love to find otherpeople who want to talk about it. hey, i found a questionhere from ophelius. it's pretty good. she asks, besides paintingminiatures yourself, like, how can you lower the costof the buy-in to get into miniatures games?
because a lot of these,especially on the big army-level stuff, it can be abit pricey, especially when you have the lead, youknow, when you're playing with metal. what do you guys think aboutbringing the cost down for new fans? warren: firstly-- ben: sorry, go on. go ahead.
warren: sorry, ben. i'm talking over. well, firstly, i'm going to bereally controversial here and say probably avoid gamesworkshop unless you're willing to buy their stuff on ebay. games workshop will loveme for saying that. but games workshop put theirprices up religiously every single year. so they can hardly expect meto say anything different.
if cost is an issue, have alook at some of the other games that are producingplastics. ebay is definitely your friendbecause you can pick up some great deals there. but if you look at companieslike mantic, they do some cool sci-fi and fantasy stuff. a lot of the other producers,their prices are more reasonable. games workshop, theirstuff is the biggest
games in the world. they can afford to chargea premium on that. i would shop around. i would definitelyshop around. if you look to your local gamingstores, you can find a lot more stuff from otherranges, as warren said, that can be used within themainstream games. and yet, you know, it'sslightly cheaper. so mantic's a good way of doingit, especially because
they cover such a wide rangeof fantasy stuff. ben: although there are loadsand loads of companies of the internet that sort of sell sortof cheaper troop options and stuff like that for fancygames, like, there's one called avatars of war. and they've been doingsome really cool sort of chaotic knights. warren: beautiful plastics. ben: twisted stuff andreally cool dwarfs.
and i love my dwarfs. and they do really fantasticsets that are really customizable. and they're cheaper than someof stuff you'll find in the mainstream games as well so. warren: now the other obviousthing that i could have said that i didn't say, i'll explainwhy i didn't say it, is opt for a game that'sa very skirmish-level. and that way, you don't needvaried miniatures for doing
it, for playing it. however, if you have the samegene i have, that'll not last very long. you'll want to collect,and collect, and collect, and collect. so it's very easy for me to say,go for a game with a low amount of miniatures. but if you do get the bug, youwill want to start scaling up. and get creative withthe terrain.
like, soda bottles, oil cans,all kinds of stuff, just generic foam stuff you find. people throw way things thatcan be, when we look at it like a really close micro-levelit looks really interesting. and when you cut it up andput it as terrain, it's cool, you know. boyan: and that's a really easyway of getting around the terrain stuff, is just kind ofrecycling and having an eye.
warren: food cans make greatpieces of terrain because they look like oil refinery-typethings. i've done some obscene stuff. like, i've bought little heliumthings for my daughter, you know, the canister tofill balloons for her. that canister makes the mostawesome oil refinery thing as well, you know. so i just collect trash, guys. because you just never know.
i had a guy out fixing theplumbing and he was getting rid of the little, whatdo you call them? valves. and he packed them up tothrow them in the bin. and i said, no, man. can i keep them, please? you know, because those valvesagain is, like, that's pipelines and stuffthat you could lay out on a gaming table.
sam: in the office before youthrew everything away, you pretty much had to pass itby warren or [inaudible]. sam: the answer everytime was, stick it in the bottle drawer. we'll keep that. we may never use it,but we'll keep it. ben: you can also look atareas that you wouldn't necessarily look at. like, we had a timewhere we were just
walking through a bookstore. and we saw, like, this puzzlepiece, harry potter set that they've come out forkids to play with. and we just put that togetherand that created perfect terrain for skirmish-levelgaming. we used it for more time inthe end, which is a games workshop specialist game. and just this stuff was aboutfive pounds and you got like this massive pack of this stuffthat you could just put
together easily warren: was it kind of likea 3-d jigsaw, ben? it was like a 3-d jigsawkind of thing. and it suddenly becomestable top train. i was going to ask you guyswhat you thought about the paper terrain. i've seen some producers, theyactually will have terrain like puzzle pieces. and you put it together,like, on the outside.
not really to have your minisfighting from there, but like, just as terrain inthe background. what do you guys thinkabout that? because that's really a lotcheaper than buying, like, these [inaudible] and things, at all thecrazy metal stuff? warren: i'm a massive fan. however, whether it'scheaper or not, mm. you know, because there are somegreat plastic kits out
there that actually, wheneveryou take into getting a decent printer to print the thing,you know, the card, you'll want a decent card stock,especially if you want to stick it to somethinglike foam core. foam core can add up inprice pretty quickly. however, where it does save youis you don't have to paint it because it gives you abeautiful looking building that if you use a few weatheringtechniques, we spray kind of like an oil spreadat them just to blend
it all in together and tightenit up, you end up with a beautiful, beautifulterrain board. there's a particular producerout there called dave graffam. and we've used a lot ofdave graffam's stuff. and dave's stuff it'sjust stunning. he's really, reallygood at it. but so, big thumbs upfor paper terrain. but be wary. don't go into it necessarilythinking you're going to save
a ton of money on it. because it really depends onthe end quality you want to get from that. boyan: i mean, what about if youguys all get together as a gaming group or a clubto purchase stuff. and like, you know, if you'regoing to play it at one person's house, then leave allthe terrain and things there. boyan: you know, that'sa easy way. and also, if you are hanging outwith people who are much
more experienced, theymight have molds. they might have, like, precastmolds that you can just be like, great, let me make a quicklittle thing off of your whatever, wall terrainfor, like, a fantasy setting or whatever. warren: oh, yeah. if you're into that, youguys have got to check out hurst arts. bruce hurst has beenat for years.
and he makes these beautifulrubber molds. and you get dental plaster,like hydrocol or something like that, and you mix it upand you just make bricks. it's lego for adults, guys,and it is stunningly good. so you get, it's somewoman's tacky glue. it's an american product,as well. and you just glue these littlebricks together. and you can make castle's,dungeons, sci-fi, graveyard. it is fantastic.
i've had the best time withhurst arts stuff. if you fancy making yourown terrain, i would highly advise that. because you could just continue churning this stuff out. and you make more, andmore, and more of it. is it time-consuming? but all good hobbies are. and the other thing isyou can reuse it for
role playing games. like, i see this all the timewhere people use the same custom figs and whatever, andthe terrains, and it takes your gaming experience to awhole nother level when you have a character that is, like,customized to look just like what you see them to looklike, painted the way you want with all the equipmentthat they have and playing on a terrain. i mean, it's so cool.
like, i don't know howto explain it if you haven't been there. but it really takes role playingto another level when you have these figs there. sam: warren, you've gotan entire dungeon set, haven't you? i have, well, two sets actually,two complete sets of dungeon tiles that werebased on the game descent by fantasy flight.
we've mentioned them again. we're waiting for a checknow, guys, you know. boyan: i'll call christianup after this. it's based on descent. and i have two completesets of it. and it's just stunning. but that was done usingthe hurst arts stuff. it's just so different wheneveryou can lay something like that out on thekitchen table.
and get your family together,your friends together, and you just have an adventure on it. i use it for playingdescent or even playing warhammer quest. or do you know what? sometimes we just play anadventure where we make it up as we go along. and we have some tongue andcheek moment, a bit of innuendo in there becausewe all love a
willy joke over here. so just make it up. it's an opportunity to play. and i think, you know, maybethat's what it is. maybe we never really grew up. maybe we have something insideus that, we miss our toys, you know. we miss our "star wars." we justlove to be able to get a couple hours every nowand again to play.
boyan: that's good. we still have a fewmore minutes. i have a question here. hey, chris thompson asks sam,what's your 40k army? what do you play and why? sam: well, i started out in 40kin primary school with an eldar army. i recently got back to 40k andpretty much had to relearn it all from scrap.
but i bought all of justin's oldmarine army that we used to call the debt all marinesbecause it looked like he painted it on with a roller. warren: if you're wondering whojustin is, justin is the guy that gets killed in everyepisode of on the table. when justin learned to paint,justin used like a brush you would paint your wall with. sam: well, i bought his entirespace marine army. and i'm actually in the processof converting them.
i got a bunch of shoulderpads off forage world. and i'm making them into a deathwatch themed army, which they're like alien huntersfrom the war and 40k background. i just got that because i don'twant a normal chapter. i want something that's fun. ben: do somethingdifferent, yeah. warren: customization, go in andjust doing what is it that makes you feel happy, guys.
i've a question herefrom blade gtr. what is your favorite setthat you have painted? and if you don't mind,i'll answer that. i painted a tank recently. well, not recently,a while ago. it's called the lehman ross. and it's from the warhammer40k world again. and i painted it and i usedit to try and learn some weathering techniques.
and i haven't had a lot of timeto paint since so i'm still immensely proudof that tank. because i've got this mostawesome oily kind of affect where it looked like a ram typething and the metal bit of the inside of the ramhad this real oily kind of look to it. and i was so, so proud of it. i achieved the affect by mixinga little bit of wash, it was a brown washat the time.
a wash is kind of like a verythinned down paint. but i mixed it with a product,it's kind of like a varnish for floors, which gaveit that kind of oily, glossy kind of a look. so it looks wet eventhough it's dry. but it's not very glossy. it's like a gloss paint. it has a more kind ofoily look to it. so that was about as helpfulas can be there.
but it's cool. i like it. boyan: how about [inaudible]? warren: have you paintedanything, bo? is painting your thing? boyan: that's the part wheremy forbidden talent that i talked about earlier comes in. like, i haven't actuallypainted armies. my technique is superrudimentary.
like, not good at all. so especially since i hang outwith people who are like pros, it's really quite embarrassingto [inaudible]. sam: i feel your pain, man. boyan: so that hasn'tbeen my thing. but i have a lot of friendswho are really into it. and they have like thepainting desks. and all paints are set up. i mean, it's part of their,like, ritual.
like it's how they decompress. they go to this world. it's quiet. it's kind of like reading. and it's like this ritualprocess and you go there you. and you go through yourarmies and you paint. and even if you're not playing,they're still like a really good, i don't know. there's a good mental quality,a spiritual quality to, like,
being able to go to that placeand not be all stressed out about what's going onin your work day. warren: if we could fitone more question in before we finish. this is a question that's kindof close to my own heart. and that's from momma dobble. and it's, can you recommendgames for husband, wife that are co-op, and forseven-year-old boys as well? now, it's difficult.
to co-op, it's difficult. that's like people asking fora single player war game. you can download rules forsingle player war games, but it's not just so easy. but if you want to co-op, iwould recommend something like a game of descent, or possiblyeven munchin quests as a game. a seven-year-old boy is goingto love descent because it's got dragons and stufflike that in it. and he will be able to get upto the basics of the rules.
and as a mom and dad playingthere, you'll be able to simplify it a bit and give himsome leeway here and there. but it's close to my ownheart because i have a toddler now as well. and i'm trying to graduallyintroduce my toddler already into tabletop gaming. so we were playing rapido overchristmas because she loves playing with play dough. so i got myself and the mrs.the game where we can play
with dough and she can play withdough and get the hang of playing at the table with us. it's an interesting one. i'd love to see a lot moregames out there that were maybe geared more towardsfamilies getting together. but too, off the top of myhead, descent because the miniatures are so cool and ithas dungeon tiles and it is kind of cooperative. but if you want something that'smaybe even a little bit
more simple, a little bit more,i don't know, maybe a little bit more basic, somethinglike munchkin quest, which is munchin, butas a board game. so you have seen willplaying munchin. so if you enjoyed that episode,munchin quest is like that, but as a board game. boyan: ben, sam, do you guyshave any tips for finding things that might be morefamily appropriate? obviously like, malafo andsomething like that's not
appropriate. but, you know, it'slike harder. ben: there's a reallygood game by plaid hat or plaid hat. and it's mice and mystics. ben: and it's a game forlittle tiny mice. well, there are people that havebeen turned into mice. and they've got to goand trying and save the king and stuff.
and the game is donelike a story book. so you read through everychapter and you play through a cool little scenario. and then you moveon and stuff. and so it's something that youcould perceivably sit down with your sons or daughtersor whoever, and play that. and say, next week we're goingto do chapter two and stuff. and so it'll be a niceprogressive system warren: like story timebefore bed, isn't it?
exactly. but war game time or tabletop time before bed. boyan: those same figscan be used for mouse guard, which is-- ben: yes, exactly. boyan: really fun roleplaying game. the system's fairly simple. so children probably as youngas seven or eight can play. and so if you want to get themgoing with mice and mystics
and then go into mouse guard,i think that's-- ben: yeah, exactly. yeah, it's a great segue. boyan: sam, what do you think? any out there that might begood for families or kids? sam: yeah, i actually use boardgames and stuff to keep my cousins quiet wheni'm babysitting. munchin is the main one becauseeveryone loves a game where you can back stabyour relatives.
the main one i've got at themoment the discworld board game, discworld and[inaudible] because i am a massivediscworld fan. and it is actually a really,really good game. i would definitely recommendthat to anyone, even those who aren't discworld fans. and at the moment, i'm trying toget all my younger cousins into magic the gatheringactually. we'll see what the nextstep will be.
warren: their parents willlove you for that. just get them involvedin car crack. yeah, that's a good idea. boyan: i don't know if you guyshave it over there, but lego has a set of board games,heroica, which is really cool. they're basically co-op. and you have the little mini. you can essentially createterrain with lego, which is awesome.
it gets people building, andcrafting, and like, living in a world which is nice. the rules are very light. and they come with dice. so if you want to like upgradethem to something, like transitioning them into awar game, that's cool. and another one is calledsuper dungeon explore. boyan: yeah, it's really cool,really cute anime style miniature game.
sam: i really want toplay that game. boyan: yeah, it's funand it's co-op. but it requires paintingsso that's a nice transition into doing it. so if you want to paint with thekids, that's an activity. that's cool. and you play, like, characters,you know, like you have dwarfs, and like athief, and whatever. and it's kind of like alittle dungeon delve.
and that might be a good one. because the rules arepretty simple. and i think seven,eight-year-olds could probably get it. cool. oh, hey. we're over the time. warren: we are. well, i want to saythanks, guys.
this was a lot of fun. so the moral of the storyis, don't be shy. go play more war games. boyan: that'll getyou into it. sam: no, the moral of the storyis, if you want to get into board games, goto fantasy fight. boyan: it's true. [inaudible] job and i have agood working relationship with the guy, the warhammer, right.
so that's one of the reasonswhy they get to do death watch, and the blood bowl cardgame, and all this other stuff is because, you know, theyhave good relationships. in the states, yeah,it's probably going to be fantasy flight. but you know, they doan amazing job. i mean, their games look sick. like, the detail is amazing. and it's fun to play.
so yeah, try it out. sorry we didn't get to allthe questions out there. but look for us next time. remember, table top's backevery thursday and on the table also everyother thursday. so thursday's is fortable top gaming. so why don't you go out andplay more games, guys. warren: ok, guys. thanks.
boyan: thanks, everyone. ben: bye. ben: see ya.
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